tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16816866.post3157329976768115057..comments2024-02-29T02:10:56.878-08:00Comments on J O S H U A P U N D I T: The Chicken Or The Egg?Freedom Fighterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13649470110087808596noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16816866.post-2269247409318425862015-03-26T16:21:20.293-07:002015-03-26T16:21:20.293-07:00I suspect the problem might lie deeper than just t...I suspect the problem might lie deeper than just the culture over a thousand+ years, but in the theology of Islam itself. In the case of Christianity, what is the source of the moral law? In the case of Judaism, what is the source of the moral law? In the case of Islam, what is the source of the moral law?<br /><br />In Christianity and Judaism, the source of the moral law is the nature of Yahweh -- or rather, his attributes. As Allah has no attributes, Islam is radically different.<br /><br />What does this imply about the nature of the moral law and it's application to everyday life?<br /><br />A parallel question might be -- in Christianity and Judaism, what are the source of respect for human life? answer the same question for Islam. As the differences widen out, the problem Islam has with it's attitude towards the world should be become more clear. To "reform," Islam must come to terms with this set of problems. <br /><br />BTW, the reason Christianity and Judaism has flexibility in their reading of the moral law is precisely because they ground the moral law in an underlying set of ideas about Yahweh and his attributes. Especially in Christianity, the Mosaic Law is not "the only Law ever made," but rather one of several possible valid expressions of God's character. This much like case law and natural law, in a sense...Russ Whitehttp://www.thinch.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16816866.post-15087263350981319232008-06-12T10:26:00.000-07:002008-06-12T10:26:00.000-07:00Hello Peter,and welcome to Joshua's Army.I get a f...Hello Peter,and welcome to Joshua's Army.I get a fair number of readers from your side of the pond.<BR/><BR/>You raise an excellent point, but one that unfortunately bodes ill for Islam's relationship with the West in the near term if you're correct.<BR/><BR/>The Wahabis and Deobandis both arose out of a desire to get back to so-called 'pure Islam' with all its violent accouterments, and as I'm sure you'll agree, so did the current Salafist and khomeniest movements,after the 'failure' of PanArabism in the 1970's.<BR/><BR/>So if you're correct,there's very little chance of Islam learning to coexist with the West in the near term.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I think I could raise the counter argument that Islam's conquests of Spain,the Balkans and India as well as the ethnic cleansing of the Jews from Saudi Arabia were just as traumatic and destructive as the Mongol conquest of the Muslim world,but once they had shaken off the Muslim yoke, none of those civilizations became mired in decline the way the Islamic world did, therefore giving some weight to my points about the inability of Islam in general to adapt and progress and the basic stifling nature of Muslim society.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for an excellent post!<BR/><BR/>All Best,<BR/>rmFreedom Fighterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13649470110087808596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16816866.post-18440991358149228232008-06-12T02:03:00.000-07:002008-06-12T02:03:00.000-07:00Whilst I agree with you in general terms about the...Whilst I agree with you in general terms about the nature of Islam I believe there is a very important historical reason for this and it is a reason which has been forgotten in the West, because it didn't happen to us. In those parts of the world that did suffer, such as China, Eastern Europe and the Muslim world it is largely ignored or simply swept under the carpet. The memory is too traumatic to contemplate.<BR/>The event which gave rise to this trauma was the arrival of the Mongols.Before their arrival the Muslim lands were among the most civilized and advanced parts of the<BR/>world and had every chance of continuing to evolve normally.<BR/>Of the four Muslim kingdoms which existed at the time, two were destroyed and the remaining two, Syria and Egypt escaped only by the skin of their teeth. But there was a terrible price to pay. They fell into the hands of a race of ex-slaves and religious fundamentalists called the Marmalukes. They believed that the infidels had triumphed because the Muslims were not religious enough and must return to the Koran. The Muslim world then began its long slow decline into rigid fundamentalism and xenophobia.<BR/>A similar effect can be seen in China and Eastern Europe. After finally throwing off the Mongol dynasty, the Chinese Empire was bigger, more aggressive and possessed of a visceral hatred and contempt for foreigners. Likewise after throwing off the 'Tartar Yoke' two hundred years later, Eastern Europe had lost its place as the most prosperous part of the continent. The West had undergone the Renaissance and was well on the way to dominance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16816866.post-83363815794360374792008-06-11T17:07:00.000-07:002008-06-11T17:07:00.000-07:00Hi John, and welcome to Josuah's Army.Not to nitpi...Hi John, and welcome to Josuah's Army.<BR/><BR/>Not to nitpick back, but while the Torah is considered divine:<BR/><BR/>a) The Hebrew Bible consists of more than just the Torah<BR/><BR/>B)it has always been subject to interpertation, which is one reason why Jews read a parsha per week, plus all the commentaries!<BR/><BR/>C) Two Jews will always have three opinions on exactly what G-d meant.<BR/><BR/>As you may know, there's a famous Chasidic story about a group of emminent Rabbis in Israel debating energetically over a fine point of Law, to the point where G-d himself entered the discussion and informed the Rabbis as to whom was right and what He in fact meant.<BR/><BR/>At that point, one of the Rabbis supposedly said: "Almighty King, you gave us the gift of the Law.But it is OUR job to interpert it and decide how to apply it in the matter at hand."<BR/><BR/>At that point, G-d supposedly laughed with glee and departed, delighted (as any father would be) that his children had matured and could find their own way on the path He had set for them.<BR/><BR/>I'm aware of the fact that Judaism has successfully evolved mechanisms to adapt to changing circumstances, as has Christianity.<BR/><BR/>Islam has not, which is exactly my point. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for dropping by.<BR/><BR/>rmFreedom Fighterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13649470110087808596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16816866.post-73998710869371370732008-06-11T14:47:00.000-07:002008-06-11T14:47:00.000-07:00I don't mean to nitpick, but many if not most Orth...I don't mean to nitpick, but many if not most Orthodox Jews take the Torah as literaly the word of G-d.<BR/><BR/>That said, to paraphrase very loosely, G-d gave it to us along with the authority to interpet it.<BR/><BR/>We don't sacrafice at the temple because it's no longer there. We have substituted prayers for the sacrifices that can no longer be given, based on prophetic revelation, but these prayers make specific reference to the actual sacrificesthey have replaced.<BR/><BR/>There is however a group who are gearing up to restart the whole business as soon as it's practicable...<BR/><BR/>The point is that Judaism has it's own mechanisms to adapt to changing circumstances, not be throwing away the past in revolution, but by slow evolution.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15470923656225604620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16816866.post-6043502546448419032008-06-11T09:18:00.000-07:002008-06-11T09:18:00.000-07:00Hi Dave,Nice to see you!Respectfully, I disagree o...Hi Dave,<BR/>Nice to see you!<BR/><BR/>Respectfully, I disagree on both points.<BR/><BR/>Islam has never been isolated in the manner you suggest because it has never sought isolation per se(ala' the Chinese or the Japanese - or the Jews, for that matter, as I mention in the piece)...but the spreading of its influence and dominance over the 'other', which is essentially Mohammed's message.<BR/><BR/>Rather than encouraging isolation, Islam has done exactly the opposite.<BR/><BR/> As I mention, the religion was primarily spread by conquest and came into contact with several civilizations who did not practice the things we're talking about until Islam came to dominate them.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure Egypt or Mesopotamia could be classified as isolated corners of the world.And the fact also remains that violent tribal behavior like honor killings, the brutalization of women and tribal hatred of the 'other' are appearing among Muslim populations residing in the West as well.<BR/><BR/>And as I think you'd agree, the rising tide in Islam today is that ol' time religion, as promoted by the wahabis, Salafists, deobandis and khomenists.<BR/><BR/>Rather than determine which came first, Islam or the brutal tribal practices (the chicken or the egg)<BR/>I feel they influenced and co-opted each other and are now difficult to separate...though as I mention, some Muslims, at least in the West, are making a valiant effort to try.<BR/><BR/>Let's hope they're successful.<BR/><BR/>All Best,<BR/>rmFreedom Fighterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13649470110087808596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16816866.post-17591493331354186032008-06-11T06:03:00.000-07:002008-06-11T06:03:00.000-07:00The question nobody wants to ask keeps floating to...<I><BR/>The question nobody wants to ask keeps floating to the surface: Is Islam to blame? <BR/></I><BR/><BR/>My view is only a little different from yours, FF. I think that Islam, tribalism, and the awful practices you list have only been able to persist in isolation, in the out of the way corners of the world.<BR/><BR/>Does Islam encourage the isolation? I have no idea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16816866.post-4163878629186240322008-06-09T14:10:00.000-07:002008-06-09T14:10:00.000-07:00Hello Ellen,And thanks for your contribution.I lik...Hello Ellen,<BR/>And thanks for your contribution.<BR/>I like your term 'dishonor killings.'<BR/><BR/>I would disagree that such killings are 'unIslamic' per se, since the Qu'ran sanctifies the same penalties if performed by a sharia court, and in any case, as you have confirmed, views such actions with leniency, thus tacitly approving. As I said, the general silence from the vast majority Islamic clerics on subjects like honor killings and wife beating speaks volumes.<BR/><BR/>They're much more vocal and united on subjects like the evils of the Jews or of drinking alchohol.<BR/><BR/>You're quite correct in my view that such practices predate Islam, which merely absorbed such attitudes and is now unable, at least so far, to separate itself from them.<BR/><BR/>This applies to many other areas aside from honor killings and again, is intended to answer my original question of the prevalence of such behaviour in the Islamic world ..which was <I> exactly </I> my point in writing this article.<BR/><BR/>Again, thanks for dropping by.<BR/><BR/>All Best,<BR/>rmFreedom Fighterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13649470110087808596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16816866.post-32475427011469000022008-06-09T13:11:00.000-07:002008-06-09T13:11:00.000-07:00Actually, dishonor killings are believed to have t...Actually, dishonor killings are believed to have their origins in misinterpretations of pre-Islamic Arab tribal codes. They pre-date Islam by centuries and are, in fact, un-Islamic.<BR/><BR/>Where things get a little muddled is that it is the case that the majority of the world's dishonor killings occur in Arab/Muslim countries and in Arab/Muslim immigrant communities elsewhere. So there's a correlation, but no causality.<BR/><BR/>Also, when I conducted a nationwide attitude and opinion survey on dishonor killings in Jordan, a little more than one in five people in my representative sample told me they believe Islam tells them they must avenge affronts to family honor through murder. This isn't, in fact, the case, but the fact that so many people believe it to be so is a huge problem.<BR/><BR/>Also, not to nitpick, but it's Article 98 of the Jordanian penal code (having to do with crimes committed in a "fit of fury") that results in the puny penalties for these crimes. Articles 97 and 340 also offer leniency, but they have seldom, if ever, been used (according to the Speaker of the Lower House of Parliament in Jordan).<BR/><BR/>Ellen R. Sheeley, Author<BR/>"Reclaiming Honor in Jordan"<BR/>http://www.redroom.com/author/ellen-r-sheeleyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com